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Old 09-26-2008, 09:41 AM   #1
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Question Inbreeding

I heard that if you inbreeding a line for a few generations, they no longer as good as before and start to degenerate in term of quality. Is this true?
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:14 AM   #2
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it is true that inbreeding lowers the quality of your fish. but i read that inbreeding for a few generations is ok.

the question i want to put here is, how pro breeders avoid inbreeding? you can't have new females from new families forever. there will be a point where inbreding will take place.
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:59 PM   #3
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is breeding cousins still consider as inbreeding? i mean:

1. father + mother = sisters = inbreeding
2a. son + daughter = inbreed
2b. son + daughter = inbreed
3. grandson from 2a + granddaughter from 2.b = still inbreed?
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Old 09-29-2008, 03:59 AM   #4
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Most breeders will use winner males from arena to cross to their lines, therefore always get fresh blood . From what I understand, most of them don't inbreed fish. If you want to inbreed fish, use inbreeding as a way to purify a bloodline. Inbred fish are then used as a foundation stock to cross with different bloodlines in order to produce quality fighters. The inbred fish themselves may not be fit enough to go to the ring, but they are good for producing battle fish .
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:12 AM   #5
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Can i run 2 families and cross them with each other to avoid inbreeding? Or is crossing their offspring's offspring consider as inbreed as well?
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:07 PM   #6
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Let me get straight to the point. For sure, breeding brothers and sisters is considered inbreeding. How un-related should the pair be in order to avoid inbreeding? 2nd cousins? 3rd cousins? 4th...5th...?
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Old 09-29-2008, 04:25 PM   #7
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i've read a few articles about inbreeding today and as far as i understand right, it doesn't matter which grade these cousins are. it is inbreeding period. plz feel free to correct me if i'm not right. i wonder myself if i could run 1 family with 2 lines at the same time to breed cousins, to avoid bad genetics. or run 2 families at the same time and crossbreeding. so you start with fresh blood and start with 3th cousins.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:55 PM   #8
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on plakatthai.com he introduces 3 way of breeding. inbreeding, line-breeding and cross-breeding. what confuses me is, that precha didn't even mention anything bad about inbreeding. isn't he aware of the genetic problem?
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
i've read a few articles about inbreeding today and as far as i understand right, it doesn't matter which grade these cousins are. it is inbreeding period. plz feel free to correct me if i'm not right. i wonder myself if i could run 1 family with 2 lines at the same time to breed cousins, to avoid bad genetics. or run 2 families at the same time and crossbreeding. so you start with fresh blood and start with 3th cousins.
For each family, you should maintain at least 2 lines to prevent inbreeding depression. Each of the line you need to occasionally outcross to different bloodline and inbreed again to improve the quality of the line.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
on plakatthai.com he introduces 3 way of breeding. inbreeding, line-breeding and cross-breeding. what confuses me is, that precha didn't even mention anything bad about inbreeding. isn't he aware of the genetic problem?
Everybody is aware of bad consequence of uncontrolled inbreeding. That's why most Asian breeder don't do that. They are scared of inbreeding. It's like a bad word in fish breeding. However, if you do it in a well managed way the outcome is outstanding. If you want to learn more about inbreeding/linebreeding in producing fighters, look into articles of American Gamefowl breeding. They are very successful with this method to maintain bloodline and battle cross chicken.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by killertrainer View Post
Dthong,

You have chickens as well?
No, I don't. But the breeding concept can be applied to fish as well since you are trying to produce a game breed .
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:22 PM   #12
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there are fishes tho, where inbreeding is positiv. in nature they would rather chose their relatives than strangers. i forgot their name.
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
there are fishes tho, where inbreeding is positiv. in nature they would rather chose their relatives than strangers. i forgot their name.
I'm not sure if that's true. But let's just say that what you said is true. So just because they chose to mate with relatives, it doesn't mean that it's better for the gene pool.

The fancy bettas such as halfmoons are forced into inbreeding to maintain a certain finage/fancy quality. The drawback is that this produces genetic deformation and weak immunity. But this is ok because these are show bettas.

In the fighting breed, we want the next generation to be faster, stronger, smarter, and more aggressive than the previous. What some breeders do is that they developed their own line of very good females and breed them with champion males from the arenas. This done because males can be easily tested but not females. Also, this method of breeding introduces new and strong bloodlines to the brood.

Feel free to correct me on anything.
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Old 10-04-2008, 04:06 AM   #14
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the article blahblah mentioned is here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17010083/
However, inbreeding in game animals has nothing to do with that. It's been done in Western game breeders for centuries. Racing horses, fighting dogs, fighting gamefowls were all subjected to inbreeding programs. When you mate 2 inbreed lines you will cancel out all the negative effects of inbreeding b/c you brought different alleles together. In gamefowls, breeders often have many inbred lines. Those lines are rarely fought, but when mate together they produce battle crosses which have the best of both worlds to compete in arena .
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:44 PM   #15
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yes, those are the fishes i meant.

dthong, you seem to know alot about the topic. how many outbreeds do you need to cancel all the negative genes? if a line is inbred like 5 generations, you still need only one outbreed or crossbreed to cancel the bad genes out?

so you need 3 lines. 2 inbred lines for keeping the bloodline and one line to fight, which will be a crossbreed of the two inbred lines.
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:22 AM   #16
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A single outbreed to a strange line will cancel all the negative effects.
You are right about the lines. That's what gamefowl breeder would do to create a battle cross. But since I don't have much room I usually use inbred line cross with 1/2 inbred (inbred line already outcross with unrelated line). You can do it with thousands of ways depend on what you want to improve and your imagination.
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Old 10-21-2008, 07:19 PM   #17
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i wouldnt see anything wrong with inbreeding unless you do it to the point where they are having deformities
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:17 PM   #18
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dthong, you hit the nail right on the head, what you kniw of breeding fish and or dogs or chickens all applies to breeding any animals. a pure family line crossed to another pure family line will produce battle crosses better than the parent lines. this is the way its done in gamedogs, some do not understand this concept , and always breed more and more outcrossed , but it is better to fix the lines traits and outcross for more predictable results. what you say about breeders keeping a family pure but not fighting it much is the way its is with old timers in gamedogs, and they outcross to get battle stock usually to the same family that is removed for a few generations. this is how animals breed in the wild and are clones to each other and healthy , because they breed within pure as proven family genes in their territories , proving the genes can survive and mate in that territory, outcrosses happen less drastically when the groups of joining territories breed on the fringes of those territories and keep the allelic pairs having healthy variation to compenstae for changes in the environment. breeding to get pure females to cross to other champs down the road is exactly what im doing.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
on plakatthai.com he introduces 3 way of breeding. inbreeding, line-breeding and cross-breeding. what confuses me is, that precha didn't even mention anything bad about inbreeding. isn't he aware of the genetic problem?

I’m positively sure Mr Precha knows pretty well about Breeding. As with any Professional Breeder (they all have their own little secrets in Breeding successfully through their personal experiences)…here I’m talking about by doing so – they have a (Greater Chances) into getting Great-Fighters …… Luck is very important here too.

I believed many factors come into play – if one wants to breed great-fighters (besides the common sense of wanting to Breed Good Quality Male with Good Quality Female) - - - from what I heard.

Can an average Fighter Male & Female breeds - - Great Fighters? … Yes they can too. Probably this where “LUCK” comes into play – but more than that - - Good Breeders knows how to do “The Matching Process” ….. I heard this art they talk about – but never been disclosed to me - - can’t blame them - - It’s their Bread & Butter here.

The always say - In Breeding you mush know how to match a Female to a Male....(and they are not talking about matching a 5-star to a 5-star here).

Last edited by RudimentalDrummer; 10-31-2008 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:02 PM   #20
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by any means, it would be very interessting, if you could give any more informations on inbreeding and matching the pairs. tho i understand it is not easy to get those informations.
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